Animals groom. It’s instinctive. The Gang of Two lick each other’s heads. Apes pick bugs out of the hair of their closest ape-friends. Personally, I like to pop zits, but I probably shouldn’t broadcast that.
My point is it’s natural, nay, instinctive, to groom. Also it’s fun. Also it feels really good. But grooming has got a bad rap in some circles, because women are expected to do more of it than men, and therefore it is considered a sign of patriarchal oppression. I’m not sure I buy that.
Oh, yes, when a woman must have a level of excellence in her appearance that far exceeds what is expected of a man, and when a lack of that excellence impairs her ability to get ahead, then that is indeed, the patriarchy. I should be able top get the same job as an overweight man. But I just don’t think it’s inherently oppressive to shave my legs.
It’s more likely that the patriarchy makes men afraid to groom, lest they appear feminine, and that’s a big component of why it’s women that groom more. Because women are the “pretty” gender in our species, and because the patriarchy (and its companion, homophobia) forces men to constantly guard their masculinity against the forces of darkness, a large portion of het males think it’s butch to be slobby and smelly.
This explains the popularity of a show like Queer Eye. For all the stereotyping of gays, its ultimate message is that all men can be well-groomed, can smell good, look good, and cook a decent meal, and that it doesn’t make you gay. At the end of each episode, we meet a newly spiffed-up straight guy, still very straight indeed, and yet pretty as a frickin’ picture. The barrier broken down is the homophobia within the straight man; not his fear of the Fab Five, but his fear of himself.
And really, if straight men can accept that grooming won’t make them queer, then I should be able to shave my legs and do my face without accusations of insufficient feminism, dontcha think?
Let’s talk about stereotypes. Who are these smelly, slobby, inconsiderate men that everyone complains about? I don’t know them. Most of my male friends are far more fastidious than I am, including my husband – who always smells like yummy cologne. My brother, who was enough of a playboy that I have no doubts about his leanings, was famous in our family for not ‘getting ready’ in the morning but ‘preparing his body.’ He and many of the Virgo men I know are the ultimate Metrosexuals.
If feminism is truly the “belief in the social, political, and economic equality of the sexes,” then it means that we all get to play by the same rules. For me it isn’t the gender split, but the socio-economic split on image that drives me crazy.
It’s a dead giveaway you don’t belong, you always got to be tidy.
And we all remember what happened to poor Kaylee when she went to that high society party in her frilly dress she thought was so pretty. She was summarily informed that she had no class.
Shave on in good health, Deborah. Put on makeup or do whatever in the heck else you want to do. I would hope that the point of feminism is that we are allowed to make the choices as to what we want to do.
But then again, I’m probably less of a feminist and more of an individualist. I don’t want anybody thinking they have the right to tell me what to do.
It’s more likely that the patriarchy makes men afraid to groom, lest they appear feminine, and that’s a big component of why it’s women that groom more.
Or it’s also possible that some of us really really just don’t give a shit. Not because we’re told we shouldn’t, but because for us it isn’t ‘natural, nay, instinctive, to groom’.
I do what I need to do to get by, but it certainly doesn’t hold any appeal for me. Every minute I waste on something like shaving is a minute I could spend reading, or talking to friends, or working out some problem in my mind, or playing a computer game, or doing any of about 100,000,000 things that would be a whole lot more worthwhile.
And as for shaving…well, I wouldn’t presume to tell anyone, male or female, whether or where to shave, but as far as I’m concerned it’s an extreme and barbaric form of self-mutilation; and I subject myself to it as long as I am in exile here among the barbarous tribes where it is custom, but when I am in less barbarous lands (such as, for example, the heart of the Sierra, miles from the nearest road) I find it wholly unnecessary.
Heh-heh. I guess I found me a smelly, slobby guy to hang out with. I suppose I’m glad it’s virtual. If I can smell you from Virginia, Tom, you’ll put down the book and go take a shower, right?
My husband doesn’t particularly like to shave. When he has to “see people” he has a sort of knightly trimmed-beard look. (He actually looks a great deal like this guy.)Otherwise he gets a little scruffy – what he likes to call his scruffy-looking nerf herder look. He’s so tidy in the image he projects, though, that some people forget that he has a beard because I guess it doesn’t calculate in their brains. People who have known him for years will suddenly tilt their heads and say, “When did you grow a beard?” He has to grin and say, “1990.”
Sue, you make a good point about class distinction, although clearly Kaylee cares about grooming, she just has a different set of standards. The upper classes purposely make rules that only the upper classes can fulfill, in order to keep the rest of us down. Hence Hollywood stars have personal trainers and the rest of us who just go to the gym after work look like comparative shit.
But Tom, grooming is instinctive, albeit the degree of grooming varies from person to person. I am insufficiently self-conscious compared to “girly” standards. I’m just not vain enough. I forget about what I look like and get caught up in what I’m doing, saying, hearing, or thinking. This is definitely poor “girly” behavior.
Sue, I’m a Pagan, I hang out with any number of under-groomed smelly guys. Love ’em for who they are but would adore introducing them to the joys of deodorant. However, if your husband looks like Russell Crowe, clearly you’ve got no complaints!!
I absolutely cannot find the feminist blog I was reading that was going on and on about grooming being a patriarchal conspiracy to oppress women. It was to that I was responding, but I had gotten there by clicking a link and a link and another link, and I got lost. 🙂 Which is why I say, only the inequality is oppressive.
As far as makeup goes, I’ve had it suggested to me that it’s unnecessary, silly and demeaning…but by men, not women. I know a few women who don’t wear makeup, but they don’t give me a hard time for wearing it. But whenever I put on makeup or curl my hair in front of a guy, almost consistently, I get a comment such as “wow, am I glad I’m not a woman” or “why do you have to do all that? Just be yourself.”
My answer to all that is, this is me. I like my hair to curl at the ends. I’ve been doing it since I was eight, and I don’t feel like stopping. And I like blush and lipstick. It makes me feel sexy, just like bracelets and jeans that hug my ass. Of course, guys never suggest that ass-hugging jeans are a frivolity…just the makeup.
A major component of living among others is caring about what they think. This is not necessarily a terrible thing that obscures our individuality. A lot of it is economic, and really, any women who are ‘truly individualists, apart from the influence of the oppressive patriarcy’ should probably make their own clothes and wash their hair with homemade shampoo, because fashion trends and those hungry L’oreal marketers are tough to escape!
The part that I disagree with is the notion that men would get more into grooming if they weren’t so homophobic. I really don’t think that’s true at all.
The part that I disagree with is the notion that men would get more into grooming if they weren’t so homophobic. I really don’t think that’s true at all.
I don’t mean individual men. I mean that it’s part of the institutional homophobia of the patriarchy; part of the image of “being a man” that is sold to both men and women.
That said, there will always be a continuum. If the patriarchy were wiped away tomorrow (some if!) there would still be a range of how much grooming each individual would choose.
(And may I add that this is a terrific conversation. Real thought-provoking stuff.)
I don’t mean individual men. I mean that it’s part of the institutional homophobia of the patriarchy; part of the image of “being a man??? that is sold to both men and women.
Right, that’s how I understood it, and that’s where I disagree.
I can speak with some authority about the pressure boys get to conform to gender roles (and I’ve always been one of those who believes the patriarchy hurts men as well as women), and I never felt any kind of pressure against grooming. Pressure to be violent and athletic, sure; pressure to limit my interests to the ‘manly’ pursuits, of course. Grooming, not so much. I think a lot of guys are slobs simply because they’re lazy (and I say: good for them!); laziness is the most powerful motivator (or maybe de-motivator) known to humanity, and I think that, rather than anything to do with gender roles, is what’s at work here.
Pressure to be violent and athletic, sure; pressure to limit my interests to the ‘manly’ pursuits, of course. Grooming, not so much.
So, a guy who wears highly fashionable clothes and highly-polished shoes; you don’t suspect he’s gay? If his hair is very, very perfect, his sunglasses incredibly expensive, not gay? If a bunch of women at the office are talking hairstyles or fashion, and one man joins in…any suspicions there? What about a man with a manicure? What if he knows what “the new black” is?
So, a guy who wears highly fashionable clothes and highly-polished shoes; you don’t suspect he’s gay? If his hair is very, very perfect, his sunglasses incredibly expensive, not gay? If a bunch of women at the office are talking hairstyles or fashion, and one man joins in…any suspicions there? What about a man with a manicure? What if he knows what “the new black??? is?
Deb, in my high school class a large percentage of the male students were exceedingly well groomed – perfect hair they fussed with in the mirror after gym class, stylish clothes, cleanly shaven every morning…. and they were the ones who got dates with the girls who were exceedingly well groomed. On the pro-wrestling board I hang out on a discussion of cologne and body wash went on for 4 pages.
I think that making a blanket statement that the patriarchal society discourages men from grooming has no basis in fact. It is true that the society does not encourage boys to groom the way it encourages girls to groom, but that’s a far cry from homophobia creating a fear of grooming in men.
It’s not grooming per se that makes some men presume others are gay, it’s the manner in which they groom, in which they discuss grooming, in which they carry their groomed selves that brings the presumption of gayness.
That being siad there’s no question that women are groomed to groom from childhood, and that less-groomed women are pressured to be more “feminine”. But it’s also true that a lot of what we consider requirements for a well groomed female are modern, a result of marketing by manufacturers of grooming products intended to create a market. The patriarchal society existed for a long time before these standards were created……….
This is just the best discussion since the name the cats contest.
I think you’ve got very good points, Ken. But it still leaves a blank at the gay designer/gay decorator stereotype. “The way they groom” is circular, we still don’t know what that way is. They groom in a “gay” way? I still think there’s something in there, but obviously I haven’t put my finger on it yet.`
It has something to do with the whole “gaydar” thing…. I’m not the best one to talk, because I don’t look at people that way. Most stereotypes have some reason to exist – I think it’s safe to say that when viewing a man who is well-coiffed, nicely dressed, and who speaks with a lisp and uses his hands a lot most men and women would conclude that he was gay. I’ve known a few straight men like that, so I don’t succumb to the stereotype as easily as many, but the thought will cross my mind if the actions are broad enough.
As far as grooming in a “gay way” – I don’t know that it actually exists. But there is a difference between the way men and women groom, even when they are both grooming “well”. When women groom (at least in my experience) it is a much more personal action… women groom for themselves, men groom for others.
My wife wouldn’t think of starting her day without putting on her eyebrows and mascara – the only makeup she wears. Even if we’re not going anywhere, even if she’s sick as a dog, that makeup goes on every morning….. but when I’m on vacation the only time I’ll shave my cheeks and neck (around my beard) is if we’re going somewhere “nice” or if it starts to itch. Or she makes me. But I don’t do it for my self image.
I think that making a blanket statement that the patriarchal society discourages men from grooming has no basis in fact. It is true that the society does not encourage boys to groom the way it encourages girls to groom, but that’s a far cry from homophobia creating a fear of grooming in men.
Yes, exactly. Thanks, Ken. I’ll just add that among heterosexuals of my acquaintance, those who are most fastidious about their appearance are (without exception) those who were raised in the most patriarchal, homophobic cultures.
I’ll just add that among heterosexuals of my acquaintance, those who are most fastidious about their appearance are (without exception) those who were raised in the most patriarchal, homophobic cultures.
Ooh! Very interesting. You know, that’s curiousity-inducing. I mean, I think you’re right, but then it raises a whole bunch of OTHER questions.