Amy wants to know what’s wrong with mixing pantheons, anyway. It’s a good question.
Our culture is an eclectic one by nature; it is the way of modernity. Even the most hidebound Traditionalist is affected by this. At lunch the other day, the Indians were eating pizza, the Libyan had Chinese food, and I ate Greek salad with the Israelis. The polyglot West uses TV, movies, and yes, the Internet, to convey a broad cultural mix. We might think this doesn’t effect religion, but we’d be wrong. In fact, I’d argue that the Radical Christian Right is fighting against exactly this blended cultural stew, more than Paganism, liberalism, or homosexuality, which are merely symptoms of accepting the coexistence of a multiplicity of values. They know that even Christianity grows, changes, and embraces other influences, and it frightens them.
When we talk of ancient tribal Pagans, we are talking about people who worshiped a single “pantheon;” each tribe worshiped its own gods. They probably knew that the neighboring tribe had different gods, but they were unconcerned by that. Gods were local, tied to geography, and to the tribe.
The Jews were originally just such a tribe. They had one god only, and were allowed to worship Him only, and were required to reject all other gods. They were the “Chosen People” of this god (only later did the modern idea of monotheism, that He was the only god, show up). The Radical Christian Right likes this idea of tribal insularity, which is why they spend so much time quoting the Old Testament, even though most Christians are more about the New one.
Tribal Paganism wasn’t the only Paganism. Ancient Rome was urbane and pluralistic. All Gods Welcome. And even though everyone worshiped their own gods, their own way, it certainly influenced them to be exposed to the marketplace of religious ideas in such a vigorous way.
We live in Ancient Rome (even to the extent that some people worship our leader as a god…but I digress). Exposure to, and acceptance of, a plurality of ideas and influences from a plurality of cultures is our societal norm, and this applies to gods as well as cuisines. Pluralism is inherently detached from geography and from tribe; it is self-selected. Anyone can worship any One.
But the ability to eat both Indian and Chinese cuisines doesn’t mean that every blend makes a yummy fusion. Some flavors just don’t mix. Some gods are particular about how they will be worshiped. It is that offering with that kind of flower on that color altar cloth, or don’t bother asking. Some gods don’t get along. Serene, chaste, logical Athena, on the same altar with blustery, earthy, lustful Thor? I. Think. Not.
Some gods have pluralism as part of their nature. Call Isis (or Au Set) anytime, anywhere, because that’s how She’s been worshiped for millenia. On the other hand, while Chango is comfortable moving from place to place, and language to language, there are specific rules He wants followed.
When you worship a deity, you want to really connect. One way to connect is via cultural trappings. When I worship Kali, I play Ravi Shankar in the background. If you mix up your altar, you’re going to dilute your ability to make that connection; like serving Mexican food with all-American ingredients; you get Taco Bell instead of the real thing.
well put!
Very interesting.
Thanks, both!
this blended cultural stew, more than Paganism, liberalism, or homosexuality
Might I suggest “multisexuality” instead, to include the whole LGBT community (and their straight allies)?
Serene, chaste, logical Athena, on the same altar with blustery, earthy, lustful Thor?
I don’t recall Athena being all that “chaste”; I doubt her interest in Odyssius (sp?) was all that platonic. She just knew better than to get too involved with a mortal.
But those are quibbles. I kinda disagree with your thesis, too.
If Athena can share an altar with Ares, why not Thor? You’re comparing owls to swords with this analogy. A proper god doesn’t care what Name you call h/er/im (especially the Trickster), as long as you embrace the purpose for h/er/is existance. Odin is not Zeus (who is distinct from Jupiter) — you chose the one who is in line with your endeavor.
As to American ingredients: that’s not the problem with Taco Bell. It’s that they use cheap and crappy ingredients. An American-Mexican hybrid (South Carolina BBQ served en burrito or Chipolte Meatloaf, for example) could be interesting.
(I’m not a pagan, but if I were, I think I’d play AC/DC while worshipping Kali. Shankar is much more of Brahma guy.)
This is my view. Campbell says that good ritual re enacts myth. you dont HAVE any myths with lets say Q’yuan Yin and Cerrnonos. It just isn’t very effective
You don’t have myths in some cases, but you have iconography, you have knowledge of the originating culture, you have customs…
In Elements of Ritual I do a thing with invoking the Goddess of Willendorf, and I specifically go into what you do when there isn’t an existing mythos. There are still hints, ideas, feelings. It’s different but it can be powerful.
Might I suggest “multisexuality??? instead, to include the whole LGBT community (and their straight allies)?
Normally, I’d just say LGBT or LGBTQ but I was specifically using the Right’s terminology.
I don’t recall Athena being all that “chaste???; I doubt her interest in Odyssius (sp?) was all that platonic. She just knew better than to get too involved with a mortal.
That’s a unique view and one not supported by most scholars of the Classics. Doesn’t mean it’s wrong, though.
If Athena can share an altar with Ares, why not Thor?
I don’t think Athena would like sharing an altar with Ares.
A proper god doesn’t care what Name you call h/er/im (especially the Trickster), as long as you embrace the purpose for h/er/is existance. Odin is not Zeus (who is distinct from Jupiter) — you chose the one who is in line with your endeavor.
I’m not sure I follow you. On the one hand, you seem to embrace ‘soft polytheism,’ which says ‘all gods are one god,’ meaning the name doesn’t matter. OTOH, you say “Odin is not Zeus” etc., which is a ‘hard polytheism’ view.
An appellation is different from a name. You can invoke “Brigid of the Bards” or “Brigid, Lady of Milk” and you are invoking Brigid both times, with the same name both times, but the appellation is in line with your endeavor. Maybe that’s what you mean?
As to American ingredients: that’s not the problem with Taco Bell. It’s that they use cheap and crappy ingredients. An American-Mexican hybrid (South Carolina BBQ served en burrito or Chipolte Meatloaf, for example) could be interesting.
I said “But the ability to eat both Indian and Chinese cuisines doesn’t mean that every blend makes a yummy fusion. “ Notice I did not say there is no such thing as a yummy fusion. You just have to be careful and thoughtful in the kitchen.
As I said, I’m not a pagan, so these are merely how the gods exist in my pointy little head. I’m certainly not trying to tell you how you should see (or mix) the gods.
I don’t think Athena would like sharing an altar with Ares.
Wasn’t she born fully clad in armor? She’s the one who armed whassname for his battle with Medusa and advised Odyssius on the ways of war. and the writing of that Claus von Whoosit would be influenced by the two. I think A goddess of Chastity and Eros would be a harder fit.
But I took your “Athena sharing an altar with Thor” to mean that the Greek goddess would not go with a Germanic one. Perhaps Artemis and Thor would be a better example of an awkward fit.
I’m not sure I follow you. On the one hand, you seem to embrace ’soft polytheism,’ which says ‘all gods are one god,’ meaning the name doesn’t matter. OTOH, you say “Odin is not Zeus??? etc., which is a ‘hard polytheism’ view.
Odin is a counterpart to Zeus, in that they are both Father of the Gods and Ruler of Heaven. But they are not the same. So maybe a “medium-soft polytheism”, kinda like mollasses.
A Greek goddess might not go with a Germanic one, or She might. I was really talking about two different ideas: One, to pay attention to the individuality of the gods being worshiped, and respect Their ways. The other, to pay attention to the culture and background of the gods being worshiped.
Athena was a warrior but also a thinker. Ares was an ambivalent deity among the Greeks, considered dangerous, impulsive, and explosive. Opposite in temperament. People get confused about that because Mars among the Romans was so honored and important, and they’re cognates, but Ares was considered a jerk and Mars was considered a hero. Athena might like Mars.
Anyway, I’m sorta medium-soft myself. I think it’s best to treat gods as individuals, but I don’t pretend to fully understand the mysteries of the cosmos.
Ares is definately kind of a jerk. But Aphrodite seems to enjoy his company on Her altar and what the Lady wants, the Lady gets. That doesn’t seem like it would make a “tasty fusion”, but somehow, it works. And tasty fusion is sometimes the…erm..result.
Aphrodite and Ares have a history.
yes they do, however Athena and Prometheus have one ( she helped him steal fire) and apart from her “virginal aspect” hepheatus (sp) was so enamoured he came on her leg, the result was the founder of athens.